The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Amon Warrior]

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Anyone here say that the bear should be nerfed "to death"? Nope!

And unless something is overpowered it's not fun and can't bring "spice" to the game? That's a really awful way to look at things IMO

I was being specific to this skill in particular - which is how I view it - not to the whole game. Balacing is good, but I view this skill - on which this thread is about - has an interesting exception to the rule.

This skill 'probably' being nerfed to death might've came out a bit too strong. But certainly a 'high possibility' of this skill being nerfed would be a good bet.

Nerfing can be beneficial to the game as a whole, BUT it wouldn't be the first time that designers used the 'sledgehammer' approach on a skill, as some have fittingly called it right here in this thread...

[draxynnic]

Originally Posted by cebalrai

I'm not at all saying what you're reacting to. So not sure how you have a point

It's called a strawman argument. Instead of actually addressing the points presented by the opposition, the user of a strawman argument creates an extremist caricature of the opposition's argument (the "strawman") that everyone, including the opposition, can see as being a bad idea. This caricature is then beaten down, and through some kind of sympathetic resonance, the destruction of the strawman is believed to also show the more moderate argument actually presented by the opposition to be in error.

A close relative of the 'slippery slope' argument, although the latter allows for the possibility of a third (or fourth, or fifth, or Nth) party to be responsible for creating the extreme position instead of pretending that the actual opposition is taking that position.

[Faena]

I usually don't like gimmicks and will always try to avoid using cookie cutter builds.
However I ended playing in a UB group the other day (I was tired, but couldn't sleep so didn't want to take risk monking in dangerous situation), and I ended up having a great deal of fun while playing as a bear. And it even allowed some unloved classes to get access to UW (we had a para and a mesmer).

I really enjoyed my time, and I will certainly play UB again when I don't feel for going to something else.
Leave the players the choice on how they want to play. And maybe add an incentive to play something else than cookie cutter or holy trinity (one stupid example : one more drop in the end chest per unloved class para/mesmer/assa). But let the people enjoy the game, and I really believe there are a lot more people happy with UB than people unhappy.

[Gaile Gray]

Originally Posted by Karyuu

Well, it's been fun...

I understand what you're saying, Karyuu, but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one.

Please understand -- I'm not the Nerf Patrol. And I'm definitely not here to try to balance skills. Oh no, not for me! But when players say they're concerned about something, it's only fair to ask the designers to take a look, if only to confirm "Yep, working as intended."

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

Hello my name is Guildwarsguru, you might remember me from such films as 'casual players can do what I do? Nerf!' and 'I'm not happy until you're unhappy.'

There is nothing casual about grinding Norn to rank 10, and for areas like DoA, grinding your Lightbringer title to r8.

Save guild wars.

Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.

[Crom The Pale]

There is some room for improvement on all skills, even ursan, but there is also a sharp edge that leads to destruction of the skill as well.

Maybe the attack should not be ranged, maybe the knockdown should only be 1 second.

Other than that it should be left alone.

Keep in mind that this is more about how people want OTHER people to play rather than how this affects thier own playing style.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Keep in mind that this is more about how people want OTHER people to play rather than how this affects thier own playing style.

Actually, I think it's more about how some people want the game to not suck, while other people don't care as long as they get phat lewtz.

[Crom The Pale]

How does one skill that you can chose not to use make the game suck?

How does other peoples "phat lewtz" affect how you play the game?

This is about how you think other people should play, not about how you play and it is that very truth that should determine what changes if any are made to any PvE skill.

[leprekan]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one."

Why would a PvE ONLY skill need even a modest "tweak"?

Given the way PvE is setup so we do not impact eachothers game play .. why should it matter if player x is unhappy how player y plays?

Yes, I have UB and maxed Norn. No, I have not been in a UB group. As I said in a prior post I see more generic groups forming than UB. If UB is anything it is fun .. reminds me of long ago running into PrP in ha when they were running a toucher build (they weren't winning but they were having that thing called FUN). Sometimes people running around doing damage outside the traditional classes useage is a good thing .. it brings fun back to the game. We are 2 years out from GW2 with a shrinking fan base (go to outposts and deny it) anything that removes "fun" from the game is a bad plan.

What you need is more Anet people in the actual game to see if there really is a concern .. since many here play forums more than gw. I have more than 8500 hours logged (sorry for the extra bandwidth I cost you=p). Point being I do not see these groups being formed more than others.

[Cacheelma]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

How does one skill that you can chose not to use make the game suck?

How does other peoples "phat lewtz" affect how you play the game?

This is about how you think other people should play, not about how you play and it is that very truth that should determine what changes if any are made to any PvE skill.

Oh, no no no. Other people getting ANY loots doesn't affect me one bit.

People use overpowered skills in PvP? Who cares? I don't play PvP....not that much anyway.

People use overpowered skills in PvE? Who cares? What they do doesn't concern me.

People use duping exploits? Who cares? Their "phat lewtz" doesn't affect me one bit (amirite, mr. above?).

So tell me, o wise one, why has Anet EVER nerfed/fixed/changed ANYTHING in this game? According to your logic, nothing ANYONE do would affect your gameplay ANYWAY.

[Red Sonya]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I understand what you're saying, Karyuu, but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one.

Please understand -- I'm not the Nerf Patrol. And I'm definitely not here to try to balance skills. Oh no, not for me! But when players say they're concerned about something, it's only fair to ask the designers to take a look, if only to confirm "Yep, working as intended."

I love that part "Yep, working as intended" lol I bet they say that 1000 times a day with all the silly suggestions they get to change everything. And yah know what? I bet if they changed half of them there would be another crowd in here wanting that changed and the cycle continues. My parents always taught me though you eat what is in front of you and you don't whine about it or you don't get any pudding. Who likes Pudding?

[snikerz]

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.

Obviously not anymore with the introduction of pve-only skills, its a matter of grinding that title to max to have that superior edge in pve, killing the bear wont restore the image, there will be another fotm, and there will be more grinding.

People are ignoring the fact we are talking about an elite skill, not because you can have 3 more skills on your skillbar, but the fact its better than regular pve-only skills.

pve-only elite skill > pve-only skill > normal elite skill > normal skill.

I personally think UB is intended by the devs to be as powerful as it is, they are marketing that the norn bear is all powerful god, just take a look at dervish god forms, they are all powerful, but because of pvp imbalance they had to nerf them considerably.

[leprekan]

Originally Posted by Racthoh

There is nothing casual about grinding Norn to rank 10, and for areas like DoA, grinding your Lightbringer title to r8.


Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.

Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.

[Ministry Of Peace]

If anyone is allowed to basically beat anything they want with ursan blessing, the whole point of hard mode, titles, elite areas, etc. is completely eradicated. If people just want to have fun, they are free to do so in normal mode. Even casual players should still be able to complete elite areas on normal mode, with a little thought. Likewise, hardcore players are free to complete areas on hard mode, for greater rewards. Just like in real life, better skill and performance reaps greater rewards.

However, UB takes away any point for hardcore players to spend 2+ hours on a zone, with a good deal of the time just organizing a proper build, when a UB team can just come through and beat the zone in half the time, with little to no preparation.

You say others using UB doesn't affect you... but it does. It affects the economy.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by leprekan

is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too?

So I heard conspiracy theories don't label people as kooks anymore.

mirite?

gb2Area51, and buy me a new foil hat while you are there please.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by leprekan

Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.

You don't sell DoA greens because you farm them. You sell them because they build up when you clear the areas over and over. Not to mention "Save Yourselves!" is just as broken and needs to be smashed as well - although that at least involves the use of player skillbars and classes.

[leprekan]

Originally Posted by Ministry Of Peace

If anyone is allowed to basically beat anything they want with ursan blessing, the whole point of hard mode, titles, elite areas, etc. is completely eradicated. If people just want to have fun, they are free to do so in normal mode. Even casual players should still be able to complete elite areas on normal mode, with a little thought. Likewise, hardcore players are free to complete areas on hard mode, for greater rewards. Just like in real life, better skill and performance reaps greater rewards.

However, UB takes away any point for hardcore players to spend 2+ hours on a zone, with a good deal of the time just organizing a proper build, when a UB team can just come through and beat the zone in half the time, with little to no preparation.

You say others using UB doesn't affect you... but it does. It affects the economy.

Sorry, a cookie cutter build of hardcore people waiting for an ob tank to get agro does not scream skill to me. I would definitely fall into "hardcore" difference is I am not posting out of personal greed to protect a farm. The economy is trashed and will continue to slide into oblivion with or without this skill. The primary problem is fewer people playing the game to absorb the items .. not one pve only skill.

[Shinjinbukai]

You did not provide any argument to it being a bad skill or an arguement to it being nerfed. This skill can only be good because if I am going to pug at least I know that the wammo will have a decent skill.

Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.

This gives the other classes that can't do anything in elite areas a great opportunity.

So what if you don't like it because you think its overpowered? Find some friends who want to not use it and go ahead with a normal build, I'll be in an UB group.

[Erys Vasburg]

Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai

Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.

lol @ "managing energy" while using a skill that restores energy every time you hit c+space which is all you have to do, even though there are still morons who fail at running the most brainless "build" currently in the game.

[RhanoctJocosa]

I use UB on my warrior now because it's nice to be able to play something other than DSlash+SY or Eviscerate. However, I wouldn't give a hoot if it got hit because I can just as easily go back to running a normal warrior, and I know all the people I play with can do that too.

Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai

You did not provide any argument to it being a bad skill or an arguement to it being nerfed. This skill can only be good because if I am going to pug at least I know that the wammo will have a decent skill.

Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.

This gives the other classes that can't do anything in elite areas a great opportunity.

- If you're playing with "wammos", who I'm assuming symbolise bad players, their skill bar isn't really going to mean anything; they'll still be bad players and will still do what bad players do: overextend, attack wrong targets, trigger quests when they shouldn't, etc.
-Valid enough point, though you can always just let your energy run out (neg set) inbetween groups and put UB back in when it recharges (remember you're able to pack your bar with 7 defensive skills for when UB is down).
-Good for you

Originally Posted by Erys Vasburg

lol @ "managing energy" while using a skill that restores energy every time you hit c+space which is all you have to do, even though there are still morons who fail at running the most brainless "build" currently in the game.

Even so, you still have to think about your energy. Not saying it's an issue, no way, but it's still there. E.g., if you're a warrior you'd probably look to UR in the middle of large groups for the KD as well as the energy gain which means you're being somewhat aware when playing, even if all you're doing is button-mashing. You also have to think about weapon swapping to get the most out of your UB. Again, not an issue, but you still think about it.